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and this is weapons

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let's talk about this idea because uh

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the other aspect of it that gets a lot

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of attention now including from critics

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and debunkers are creatures call them

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Cryptids animals that don't really exist

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there were you guys saw those things at

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the Rancher Psalm other people who live

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in an area saw these things

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animals that should not be there

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remember one of the stories we told in

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the book was about a a big hyena

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muscular hyena thing with the tail of

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what looked like a fox a big bushy tail

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right that was attacking a horse it

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actually wounded the horses calves with

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these scratches and then disappeared

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there were the Rancher who shot two

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creatures out of a tree one great big

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realm thing he shot it and it vanished

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he shot something else out of a tree and

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it was like a dinosaur it left these two

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really weird tracks in the snow and you

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guys go in and Chase it there were other

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animals other creatures that were seen

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exotic birds things that don't belong

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there they're not native it was as if

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they're from another reality it was as

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if they're from another time right um it

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was almost as if you were being shown

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this stuff it was so ridiculous that no

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one could possibly believe it these

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things don't exist and yet there they

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are yeah I mean there's there's I think

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Jacques Vale coined this term as well

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level of absurdity associated with the

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with these kinds of reports and

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sightings that you know you know that if

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you report this kind of stuff you're

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going to be ridiculed

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um but the fact is during the OSAP

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program we did start investigating uh

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activity with these uh sightings around

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the the ranch all of the neighbors and

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within a two mile radius or so we

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interviewed a lot of different people

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and we accumulated a ridiculous number

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of anecdotal stories of people reporting

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creatures everything from these kind of

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item the the Gargoyles that are on top

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of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris you

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know sort of these types of of creatures

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that were seen within a mile of the

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ranch we also had sort of various

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um iterations of two legs or four-legged

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creatures that were walking on two legs

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that are anatomically impossible for

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these kinds of wolves or coyotes to be

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able to walk on on two legs we had many

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many stories of of those so what we

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actually did towards the end of the ASAP

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program was that we we constructed a

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Google map version of the Skinwalker

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Ranch and we overlaid all of the

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eyewitness locations who had seen these

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and we're talking dozens of different

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people who had seen these uh creatures

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and so then we we asked part of the

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interview process was was we asked what

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direction these creatures were moving

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when they were seen and we mapped all of

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that stuff on a Google map

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and we looked at it and lo and behold

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there was a very striking pattern all of

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these creatures were starting off in the

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Southeast and they were moving in a

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northwesterly Direction

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so you could see on the Google Map a

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series of lines that crisscrossed the

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ranch but they were all moving from

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Southeast to Northwest

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there's a story that that we told in the

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hunt for the skinwalker and column and I

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debated about it geez do we include this

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one because it's pretty crazy it was uh

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the these the witnesses or police

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officers they're cops uh and Tribal

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Police right and they come around a

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corner yeah at night uh up on the the

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paved Road up or near the the dirt road

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that you take into the ranch and they

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see these figures standing in trench

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coats smoking cigarettes and they shine

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a light on them and they're dogs and we

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had to debate do we do we put this in

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that these two dogs are smoking

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cigarettes

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we figured well what the heck does just

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throw it throw it out there look I mean

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yeah you guys get so much for that

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for including what you're told by the

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law enforcement there and I I've also

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experienced like when we earned the

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trust and we're allowed to be the first

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to film with certain uh youth tribe

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members and law enforcement members some

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off camera some on camera there's a big

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difference of someone just telling you a

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tall tale and then just seeing the fear

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in their eyes and hearing what happened

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to them after that event and and the

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impact it had on their families they're

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they're telling you a serious is a heart

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attack I'm just taking the stance of

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like even I have an allergy to these

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stories that someone tells you something

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fine I'm just saying that that's what

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happens it's too big it's too outrageous

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I'm glad you did put in the book you're

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reporting the news that's what you're

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supposed to do but you you

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actually saw in a tree I mean you had a

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personal experience and I know you and I

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know the way your mind works and I know

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that there's there how serious is you

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some of your responsibilities are you're

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going to tell you're going to shoot me

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straight but so when when Colin when you

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tell me what you saw you know and and

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then it means more to me because I'm one

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degree from somebody that that I know

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and trust and go have a beer with so I'm

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just saying it yeah you know what we

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hear uh no I've seen it a bunch of times

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if you don't have a photo it didn't

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happen well you know how it would work

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is if you did have a photo the photo is

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not real but uh you know whatever the

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level of evidence is it wouldn't ever be

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enough for people who don't want to

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believe it but as you said some of it

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seems to be ridiculous by Design so

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Preposterous that nobody could believe

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it and it it's so imaginative but um you

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know

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bottle Hollow for example we haven't

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talked about that on any podcasts or

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interviews that you and I have done but

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we we did include a little bit of it in

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your film Jeremy bottle Hollow is not

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Loch Ness it's not thousands of years

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old it's a it's a reservoir created a

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less than 200 years ago and yet it's got

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stories of creatures that sound much

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like the creatures you'd see in lakes

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around the world that are much much

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older not only creatures but lights and

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things that come out of the sky you and

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I interviewed some some witnesses right

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on the on the shores of bottle Hollow

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what do you make of that yeah I mean

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that that as you say that this is not

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sort of thousands of years old but it's

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also happens to be right beside uh skin

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marker wrench and within almost shouting

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distance of skin walk around so

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um

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all of the interviews that we did are

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consistent with this sort of

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um skin marker wrench is not anything

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exceptional it just happens to have been

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studied intensively since

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1994 or slash 1996 but you know all of

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the all of the areas around Skinwalker

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Ranch are privy to this

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absurd a level of activity that includes

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a paranormal phenomena includes

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Poltergeist phenomena and also includes

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metallic objects that seem seem to be

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co-located and are appearing and

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disappearing at the same time now the

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question are is are these completely

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unrelated phenomena or should they not

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be reported alongside these creature

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type type

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activities should they not be reported

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alongside the metallic objects that are

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seen and reported or should all of this

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all of these phenomena be reported I

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mean that's kind of the central question

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that preoccupies people and it certainly

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preoccupied us when we were initiating

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the OSAP program because we knew we

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would run into this this discrepancy

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between what is acceptable versus what

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what is not acceptable right now nuts

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and bolts UFO compared right so of

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course you should report everything what

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you're talking about is you have this

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Dia government program to look at

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high-end technology Maybe by Foreign

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adversary should we tell them that a lot

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of this is associated with these

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absolutely bizarre things that's the

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discrepancy as reporters we're going to

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report the news like you did about the

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the story from the cops of the smoking

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dog that whole thing but you know this

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idea that the entire you into base and

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is homogeneously having these

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experiences and it's not just a cultural

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thing from from a different generation

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that was what's so interesting to me you

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bring people into that area who are like

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you science scientists and you bring

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every kind of person from every kind of

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culture given enough time not one day on

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the ranch not two days hundreds and

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hundreds of 24-hour surveillance days

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under unique circumstances bam it's not

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a cultural thing in that area that

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really dawned on me when we did a bunch

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of our interviews you know so so that's

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interesting I don't get why this one

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area although there's others why an area

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would have more of this unless it's some

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Advanced uh technology from a nation

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that wants to like try out the beta test

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their stuff or even our own why this

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area there's no answer to that right

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that we know of

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um all of the the different hot spots

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around the United States and around

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Europe and in different there's really

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no

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obvious explanation of why these hot

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spots

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um exist but they are they definitely

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exist uh the Uinta Basin is is the

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obvious example we've got another one

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we've spent a lot of time in Dulce in

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New Mexico the overlap between the sort

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of bizarre

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um you know

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nutsibles craft and then bizarre

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creatures is the same in Northern New

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Mexico as it was or in the Uinta Basin I

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think the all of the legends that came

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out of the San Luis Valley in Colorado

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for example that Chris O'Brien and

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others have reported on you've got sort

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of the black triangle phenomenon you've

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got various UFOs metallic objects

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overlaid exactly with Bigfoot and with a

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lot of different anomalies and uh

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paranormal effects so you know Jacques

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Vale coined this term that the hilltop

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effect you know that that if you go in

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to investigate a UFO phenomenon you the

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first layer of interviewing of the

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witnesses you get all of the uh all of

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the reports about The anecdotal sort of

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metallic craft that appeared and

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disappeared it did right angle turns of

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the sky it was it was flashing bright

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red and bright bright blue colors that

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kind of thing but you know his his whole

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thing was that if you keep on going back

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Time After Time After Time the witnesses

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start trusting you and when they start

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trusting you they start opening up to

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the rest of this and then they start

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talking about the weird stuff that they

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wouldn't dream of of telling a stranger

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so you've got a lot of these

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investigations that happen and you've

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only got the left hand part of the the

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hilltop curve

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and it's kind of like this gaussian

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curve that is as as you go further and

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further you've got a lot of activity a

282
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lot of reports but the weirder things

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become the less reporting happens yeah

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people come to us all the time very

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serious people that work in you know

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really you know secure jobs right

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security jobs that kind of thing for our

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nation and they'll be like just want you

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to know and it is a nuts and bolts story

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an explanation

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just nuts and bolts from a very serious

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Engineers that kind of thing just using

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an example

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after a couple weeks maybe a month

295
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it'll be like

296
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there's one other thing I I don't know

297
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if it's Associated specifically with

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what I told you I saw that I know for

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sure is right and then I'm like here it

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comes there's there's often times this

301
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other element to it that transcends the

302
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physical nuts and bolts aspect of UFOs

303
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maybe it's a Consciousness effect maybe

304
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it's I don't know what to name it I

305
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can't deny that that is often it says

306
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not always at all not always right but

307
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it's a lot a lot and it's there and it's

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in your face sometimes it goes the heart

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of what OSAP was supposed to be and

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people who only have read a little bit

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00:12:57,050 --> 00:12:54,720
about it who thinks they're experts say

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the ones who will say it was supposed to

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be a UFO program or the ones who

314
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criticize there's no language about UFOs

315
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in any of the documents and you did that

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on purpose and then those who will say

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it was killed because it looked at all

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this crazy weird stuff

319
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the fact is you are never going to solve

320
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this mystery without including the weird

321
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stuff you're talking about the hilltop

322
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effect right I wanted you to continue

323
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your metaphor there about why that works

324
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if you only look at the hilltops you

325
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don't look at all I mean it it it's it

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is like

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um imagine that you're starting off on

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uh on on a new program to map out the

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topography

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of of an unknown you know area that has

331
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never been met before

332
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and sort of you assemble a team to start

333
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doing that whole process of mapping it

334
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out and then you've got some guy from

335
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the back of the who's probably

336
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associated with usdi office of you under

337
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secretary of defense for intelligence

338
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who suddenly pipes up and say okay we're

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only going to look at

340
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the tops of the mountains or the hills

341
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because that's what's used because in

342
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his mind well that's it this is this is

343
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only uh the Department of Defense only

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remit is to look at the mountaintops

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we're going to ignore the sides of the

346
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mountains we're going to ignore the

347
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Canyons we're going to ignore the

348
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valleys because that's outside the remit

349
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of the Department of Defense the only

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thing the Department of Defense is

351
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interested in is in the mountaintops and

352
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so this program then proceeds to spend

353
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enormous amounts of time and energy

354
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analyzing the mountaintops and then

355
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suddenly uh

356
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were were put into a war situation where

357
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we have to encounter this

358
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um this topography and we have no idea

359
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of what the sides of the mountains look

360
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like we have no idea what the Canyons

361
00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:52,440
look like we have no idea what the

362
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:53,940
values look like because all you study

363
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was the milk because the only thing we

364
00:15:00,530 --> 00:14:57,240
know anything about is the mountaintops

365
00:15:04,189 --> 00:15:00,540
so I'm using this as a metaphor for the

366
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sort of the the tendency to lock away

367
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um you know what allsop originally was

368
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going to be studying which would be only

369
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sensor driven data and only sort of the

370
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,660
metallic craft you're missing

371
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um you're missing the great underbelly

372
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of what actually may be important to

373
00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:24,060
study and so you know it's a metaphor

374
00:15:30,410 --> 00:15:27,060
that that could be used but it's

375
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certainly during the OSAP program

376
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we discussed many many times and long

377
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:37,800
and long discussions between the defense

378
00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:40,260
intelligence agency and the OSAP people

379
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:44,760
in Las Vegas and the intent was to leave

380
00:15:52,009 --> 00:15:47,760
no stone unturned that we would database

381
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,019
everything that we came across and then

382
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,480
we would decide to include or not

383
00:15:59,870 --> 00:15:56,880
include it later after a sufficient

384
00:16:02,389 --> 00:15:59,880
analysis had been done to decide okay

385
00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:02,399
these are probably separate phenomena

386
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:04,500
let's eliminate these from the the

387
00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:07,440
database but we don't just go in and

388
00:16:12,829 --> 00:16:10,440
focus only on the nuts and bolts

389
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:12,839
phenomena and to the exclusion of

390
00:16:18,829 --> 00:16:16,079
everything else because we don't know if

391
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,839
that all of that sort of weird extra

392
00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:21,360
stuff is associated with the phenomena

393
00:16:24,410 --> 00:16:22,980
we don't have enough data to make that